Ultra nerf a harvest


We're going to be making some further changes to Harvest Crafting with the release of 3.14.0 in April. In short, we're concerned by how deterministic some Harvest Crafts are and how easily players can craft near-perfect items. We don't feel that this is consistent with how Path of Exile's itemisation should work. Before we detail what changes are coming, we want to explain a bit about Harvest's initial implementation and our design philosophy around items and crafting.

Our Initial Plan for Harvest Crafting

Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it. But because these items work equally well on both low- and high-level equipment, it's generally considered best to save them until you're crafting your end-game gear. Many players would even argue that it's best to save them to trade for already-crafted items. In either case, using valuable currency items on your levelling gear is generally perceived to be non-optimal.

When we were designing the crafting mechanics that would be the reward system for Harvest League, we wanted to experiment with a system that allowed you to craft items while levelling (using the equivalent of powerful currency like Exalted Orbs), so that players could get the experience of using valuable currency items without feeling bad that they were missing out on future value. Our goal was to make a system that was so attractive that players would try to improve their items by throwing a few crafts at them in almost every area that they play.

Towards the end of Harvest's development, it became clear that this was a very powerful crafting system. We had hit our goals and then some. The question was whether we should preemptively nerf it before players saw it, or try it out for a league at full strength. We decided to try it out. The data we'd get from players interacting with a very powerful crafting mechanic would be very helpful with our ongoing work deciding the appropriate power level of crafting opportunities in Path of Exile 2.

So we launched with the powerful version of the system, including some crafts that modified items in more specific, deterministic ways than we had allowed before.

Upon playing the league, the crafting side of it was an immediate hit. Players easily filled gaps in their builds while levelling, and made many, many mirror-worthy items. As our concern over this grew, discussion started about how to adjust things when we eventually integrate it into the core game.

Integrating Harvest Crafting into the Core Game (in 3.13.0)

We decided to integrate Harvest into the core game as map-only content. Harvest Crafting while levelling went fine during the Harvest league, but pretty much every league has some item acquisition mechanic that occurs while levelling so we didn't think it was necessary to have Harvest on top.

In the end-game, Harvest Crafting allowed the creation of some ridiculous items, mostly via a set of deterministic crafts that interacted with specific types of mods. This had to be toned down, and we had to choose between two ways to do it: either by removing the dangerous crafts, or by keeping them in as rare possibilities and then balancing by rarity.

We decided to do the latter. The good crafts would stay in the game as very rare outcomes. We didn't remove any crafting options, other than ones that related to the process of growing a garden as they became redundant with the garden-maintenance mechanic being removed.

So in 3.13.0, we released an integrated version of Harvest where players stumble across groves full of crafts and hope they get the most valuable deterministic ones. We hoped that this would still keep the most valuable crafting options available while limiting the most abusive crafting to just very lucky or successful players.

Analysis of Integration into the Core Game

With Harvest integrated into the core game with 3.13.0, players still made ridiculous items. Even the crafts we made quite rare felt pretty common when the entire community was pooling them together and using them on the right items.

The second issue was that players felt overwhelmed to get so many crafting options. It was possible for up to 100 or so crafts to be given to the player per grove, and this caused people to feel obliged to consume them otherwise they would be wasted.

The result of both of these factors was that players had access to basically unlimited medium-power crafting and had to RNG-hunt the best crafts which they could then store for later.

Players also expressed frustration that the most effective way to get the best items in Path of Exile was to join a discord channel and try to trade for these incredibly crucial crafts.

The first part of this that concerned us was that Harvest was critical in making the best items (and hence made many other game systems obsolete). The second part, where it was inconvenient to trade them, becomes far less of a problem if we can solve the first issue. Our problem with all of this can be summarised with the following thought: "Why would I use a regular Exalted/Divine/Annul Orb when I can get one through Harvest that has a deterministic result?"

The entire rest of Path of Exile's crafting system is somewhat redundant with Harvest Crafting in its current form. While we are glad we tried the experiment of keeping all the crafts and balancing by rarity, it's unfortunately going to have to change.

Path of Exile's Item Philosophy

At its core, Path of Exile is a game about the acquisition of powerful items.

When we were designing Path of Exile, a critical aspect of item acquisition is that it is through random (rather than deterministic) means. When you defeat monsters and bosses, you receive random items. When you approach Cadiro for a valuable item, you are offered a random one rather than one that you can control. When you craft an item, you receive a random modifier. In limited cases where you can choose a specific modifier, it's usually worse than what could have been rolled randomly. Even game systems specifically intended to involve determinism such as Divination Cards and Incubators still have amounts of luck involved.

It's also important that items are hard to perfect. Ideally there's significant diminishing returns in the currency item crafting process, which lets most players get something good enough relatively easily, and the expert players can show off with really good items that took a lot of effort to make. Obtaining perfect items is ideally close to impossible, with very few players able to claim that they have such valuable treasures.

We feel that the current state of Harvest Crafting runs against both of these important philosophies. We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve. It was an interesting experiment, and we understand that some players will likely be attached to this level of incredibly easy crafting, but it's just not the Path of Exile we set out to make.

This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."

Upcoming Changes in Path of Exile 3.14.0

So in 3.14.0, we're making some changes. The first three are direct nerfs to Harvest, and the second two are improvements. It's also worth noting that Harvest Atlas passives have been adjusted to accommodate these changes.

  • Previously, every seed in a patch granted an instance of that seed's craft. Now, only some of the seeds do (so you're getting far fewer of the crafts that were overwhelming people with their quantity). Higher-tier seeds are closer to the 1:1 ratio from before.
  • Some mods that had overly-deterministic behaviour have been removed. These include all annulment mods (other than the ones that remove a mod that isn't of a specific type before adding one of that type), and all type-specific divine mods.
  • Crafts that add mods of specific types (like Physical Modifiers, for example) to items can now only be applied to non-influenced items, except for the existing mod that applies an influenced mod to an influenced item.
  • The chance of encountering a portal to the Sacred Grove in a map has been increased by 60%.
  • The Heart of the Grove encounter is now a map fragment that sometimes drops from Tier 4 Harvest bosses, instead of randomly appearing in place of a normal Harvest grove. This allows you to trade the encounter if you don't feel up to it, and it means that finding The Heart of the Grove when you are in a map with difficult mods doesn't lead to an impossible encounter.\
    Overall, this is undoubtedly a heavy nerf to high-end Harvest Crafting, but we strongly believe that it is in Path of Exile's best interests going forward, and that there are still a lot of compelling Harvest crafts that make the grove worth running at any point in map progression.

Si esque... harvest está extremadamente roto, el resto de ligas carecen de sentido estando harvest como está, solo harbinguer le ha seguido la estela.

1 respuesta

el resto de ligas carecen de sentido estando harvest como está


Es salir una Zana en el mapa y solo buscas Harvest, obvio que algo iban a tocar.


Pedazo de nerf, pero merecido , si esque solo tenias que ponerte a pensar un poquito el como y con que orden querias craftear un item con harvest y sacabas un item perfecto o muy cerca de serlo con un poco de insistencia o buscando trades/crafteos.


Lo de siempre, prefieren que el crafteo sea una loteria a que sea un sistema de crafteo de verdad.

1 respuesta

#5 En eso han basado su juego. Y era de esperar que cayera el martillo.


malas noticias para el jugador de nivel medio-alto que no pertenece a la élite de este juego. solo con ssf crafts podías hacer muy buen equipo. ahora los buenos crafts estarán de nuevo reservados al top 0.01%. sólo necesitaban eliminar la posiilidad de trade crafts en tft, por ejemplo implementando que no se pudieran guardar los crafts y que nadie pudiera entrar en sacred grove excepto el creador de la instancia


Volvemos al gambling simulator del 2019

Hubiese preferido mantenerlo tal y como está ahora o incrementar el % de aparición de Harvest pero añadiendo una nueva regla que te ligue el objeto a tu cuenta para que solo puedas utilizarlo para mejorar tu personaje (al menos en objetos con influencia)

2 1 respuesta

#8 lo que "inventó" el wow con los objetos soulbound no entiendo como no se explota mas la verdad, es el balance perfecto entre oportunidad y el abuso.


No me gusta que el sistema de crafting sea totalmente rng, y aunque yo apenas he podido sacarle partido, seguro que habia mucha gente que le daba un uso justo y no el 5% de la player base que abusaba de ello.


Yo creo que es un nerf demasiado duro. La mecánica necesitaba que se ajustase, pero lo que han hecho es desmedido.
Ayer PathofMath habló del tema y creo que tiene razon, es un nerf que afecta sobre todo al jugador medio o medio-alto y les afecta mucho. Tambien consigue que la variedad de builds sea bastante menor que sin harvest.

Los items soulbind no se si lo veo, porque por ejemplo los rerrolls no los veo tan OP y es una manera de sacarse unos chaos, si metes soulbind a eso es un poco dep.
Una de las ideas que escuché es que por ejemplo los remove no sea al 100%, mantienen el rng pero se reduce (en teoria era la idea de esa mecanica, reducir el rng).
Yo creo que podrían dejarlo tal cual está, pero los remove, remove/add y add, lo mas "OP", ponerlo con una rareza mucho mayor.


Lo dicho, afectará mas al jugador medio alto que al resto. Pero weno siendo honesto, he sacado 0 redito de harvest esta liga.,


Es más que probable que en el futuro podamos tradear los crafts. Todo el asunto gira entorno a la capacidad ,por muy tediosa que sea, de tradear los crafts.

Han preferido nerfear y *dejarnos tradear, que mantener el tedioso estado en el que estaba.


A mi me parece que se han pasado 3 pueblos, si bien es cierto que eclipsa el resto de mecánicas y deja obsoletas otras pero gracias a harvest podías hacer cualquier skill funcionar a maximo nivel. Y ha sido la liga que mas players ha mantenido.

Ahora tocara jugar las 2 skill op del momento si quieres mapear bien o jugar en party para poder permitirte los item que salgan bien gracias al rng...

Bajo mi punto de vista es un paso para atrás, preferiría que lo hicieran super rare los crafts y que te cuesten 20ex 30ex cada craft pero que no lo quiten de raiz.

1 respuesta

Y ha sido la liga que mas players ha mantenido.

Sospecho que tiene más que ver con todo el contenido del atlas que por Harvest.


Ahora tocara jugar las 2 skill op del momento si quieres mapear bien

Poeninja -> 30% Blade Vortex , 11% Cyclone, 7% Carrion, con Harvest

La peña no es de experimentar, son un poco enfermitos de la currency y si con blade vortex pueden hacer algo un 5% mas rápido que con totems, pues juegan Blade Vortex.

2 1 respuesta

#15 La expansión ha tenido que ver claramente pero también ha sido por la combinación de maven orbs mas harvest.

50% de gente que no sabe sumar y restar , aún te queda un 50% de gente que ha echo funcionar builds menos comunes.


Cuando sacaron la liga harvest dijeron que querían explorar un modo de craft que fuese distinto y que sabian que estaba op, en heist no tuvimos huerto o sea que el problema es nuevo.

En esta liga, el % de gente que tiene build full objetos mirror (objetivamente con 4-6 atributos tier1 y 2-0 atributos tier2) ha podido subir del 0'1% al 5% y gente con algun objeto mirror aunque no full build del 1% al 20%.

Estoy dando datos inventados, pero se entiende lo que quiero decir. La cantidad de objetos "perfectos" ha incrementado muchisimo, sin duda, pero ¿cómo consigue la gente esos objetos? Abusando de la mecánica. realmente no es tan fácil o rápido sacar los t1-t2, si no se pudiesen tradear los crafts sería mucho más complicado ver esos objetos. Depende del mod pero sacar rolls t1-t2 com rem/add pueden ser del orden de 10-30 dependiendo del itemlevel y de las opciones posibles. Y que te salgan con el ratio actual no es tan común.

El cambio a los remove lo entiendo, esta la annul casi mas barata que una chaos, es ridículo y permite perfeccionar muchisimo un objeto sin ningun riesgo.
El randomise meh no es algo que afecte especialmente ni para bien ni para mal no entiendo demasiado el cambio.
Los augments a bases influenciadas también se puede defender, para no forzar signature mods en algunos casos sin oposición.

Pero claro juntarlo todo me parece igual excesivo. Habiendo otras opciones que no destrozaran tanto ssf que es quien mas va a sufrir con este cambio.


Que mas os da a algunos lo que hagan con ello si vendiais todos los crafts :psyduck:


A mí me gustaba Harvest en la liga Harvest, aunque fuera claramente OP. Me gustaba más ese estilo de juego, tenía unos objetivos claros y factibles para un "casual" como yo (no soy casual en cuanto a tiempo de juego, ya que juego bastante; soy casual en cuanto a que claramente soy mediocre jugando al juego). Lo que dejaron esta liga bajo mi punto de vista fue un quiero y no puedo porque tampoco daba para demasiado, los aug/exalts son realmente raros (he subido un personaje a 97, otro a 95 y algún otro más casi a 90 y creo que podría contar con los dedos de las manos los augs/exalts que me he encontrado en Harvest). El problema, por supuesto, estaba en el tradeo masivo de esos crafteos.

De todas formas, ni me va ni me viene que nerfeen Harvest. Por mí como si lo quitan, he jugado durante muchos años a este juego sin Harvest y no he tenido problema. Los llantos y lloriqueos que se están viendo en Reddit de manera tan masiva dan hasta vergüenza ajena, la verdad.


Watch the FPS crumble!
(Manita si lo leiste con al voz de Sirus)

8 1 respuesta

#20 Mis dieses :rofl:


Si lo que quieren es que se siga usando la currency normal , que dejen el harvest tal y como esta y que el propio enchant de el harvest te cueste su equivalente en currency craftearlo y no sea gratis , asi podras meter anul/aug etc targeteados , que quieres un aug life , pues un costo de 1 ex y al menos asi no tiras un ex para que te saga cualquiera de los 20 mods posibles y te bricken el item

3 1 respuesta

#22 no es una mala opción eh. Yo veo mi gear de trade league y desde luego que harvest pide nerf a gritos, pero para la gente que juega ssf harvest es muy necesario. Creo que tal y como lo han dejado igual se han pasado, habrá que ver las opciones que quedan al final.


De vuelta al Alt/Regal/Aul spam crafting. Estoy de acuerdo que el huerto esta excesivamente roto, pero para ello pudieron sencillamente nerfear los nodos tochos o de plano eliminar el trade de los craftings (asi como deberian aumentar el % de encuentro del Sacred Ground), o como dijo el usuario Karma, cotizar los crafting a un valor determinado de currency para que asi los Annulment orbs o los mismos exaltes vuelvan a agarrar valor.

A todas estas, ya GGG deberia dejar de seguir haciendole caso al 0.1% no lifes, que solo hacen es cagarse al resto del jugador medio/alto con sus ideas ridiculas de balance.

1 mes después

Bueno, que. Un par de semanas despues que os parece como se han quedado los cambios a Harvest?

1 respuesta

#25 Previously, every seed in a patch granted an instance of that seed's craft. Now, only some of the seeds do (so you're getting far fewer of the crafts that were overwhelming people with their quantity). Higher-tier seeds are closer to the 1:1 ratio from before.

Que yo leo eso y entiendo que te vas a encontrar algún augment xD


Da penita el harvest, siento que pierdo el tiempo cuando entro, por mucho que rolee bases y saque cosas decentes, me parece demigrante. Es como ponerme a tirar chaos pero en plan aburrido.

1 respuesta

#28 Más bien, tirar fósiles diría yo. Pero si, es aburrido.


Siempre fue aburrido, la liga Harvest fue infumablemente aburrida, otra cosa esq la reward estuviese broken as fuck, pero divertida? menos que la turbo denostada/apaleada Heist.


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