[NERF] Oficial Paládín

ManOwaR

Bueno, al fin tenemos una explicación con argumentos de un dev de Blizzard (Ghostcrawler):

Hello paladins,

Sorry we didn't get a chance to pre-announce these changes before the data were pushed to the beta. I won't try to sugarcoat it -- these are nerfs.

As I tried to explain before, we concluded a couple of weeks ago that Retribution was doing too much damage in PvP. We tried to nerf the burst damage through the previous changes to Divine Storm etc. Unfortunately, those changes didn't prove sufficient. Not only were paladins still destroying other classes in PvP, but we also found their PvE damage, even at level 80, was too high. Many classes were concluding they were too weak based on comparing their numbers to paladin numbers (and to be fair, hunters and in some cases mages and warriors).

Here are the new changes:

1) Judgements of the Wise: Mana gained reduced from 33% to 15% of base mana. We spent many hours arriving at this number. For example, we did a lot of Patchwerk fights, watching the mana bar to see when and if it ever went down. In BGs, we were seeing paladins able to go from target to target without pausing even when unleashing all of their attacks. While we don't want you to go OOM in a few seconds, we don't want you to ignore the mana bar either. Mana is not rage -- warriors can't typically start a battle with a full bar.

2) Judgement of Wisdom: mana gained reduced to 1% of maximum mana and proc frequency cut by 50%. This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch when the mana provided between the two really needs to be close in order for the decision between Shadow priest and Retribution paladin to be a real one.

3) Judgement and Seals: Damage reduced by 20%. This is the major damage adjustment -- a lot of damage was coming from these. We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

4) Hammer of Wrath: Now can’t be used until the target is below 20% health. Our rule of thumb is that core "Execute-style" abilities work at 20% and talented abilities work at 35% health. We originally had Hammer at 35% based on some other limitations of the spell.

5) Art of War: Increased damage bonus to Judgements, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. I'll report back on the exact numbers here when we've settled on them.

I also want to add that the token Blessing of Might change wasn't intended as a joke -- it is designed so that Battle Shouts won't cancel the longer and more expensive Blessing of Might in a group setting.

These seem like pretty severe nerfs, but that was the intention. It is difficult for some players to ever be truly objective with issues surrounding their class, but in this case we felt Ret was severely overpowered. This was not in the realm of small tweaks to fix (though we did try originally). We overhauled the paladin class for Lich King, so it is unfortunate but not too surprising that the numbers for the dps spec require a lot of iteration. The mistake is ours, not the fault of the player base or beta testers.

Nerfing a spec or class is never fun. It means that our initial estimates of numbers were off and we know that the community is going to react negatively (to put it mildly). But we have to try and keep the game in a relatively balanced state and that is going to mean making decisions that are unpopular sometimes. If you need to blame someone for the nerfs, blame me.

As always, if we over-compensated, we'll adjust the numbers again. But as I said, our initial round of nerfs wasn't sufficient. Lest you fear that Lich King is upon as and you won't see any additional changes, that is not our point of view. We changed a lot in the game and we need to be able to rectify problems. I would expect early patches or even hotfixes to deal with class or balance problems, and hopefully these will slow down as we get closer to major content releases. But nothing is off the table after we ship, down to rearchitecting talent trees if we think that is called for. This isn't to suggest we aren't happy with the state of the game. Rather, my word that we will continue to iterate on problem areas as they come up.

I also want to stress that we do not make balance decisions based on the QQ of other classes. At most, if there is a pretty vocal outcry that will encourage us to rerun the numbers to see if something is amiss. As vocal, and sometimes passionate and even logical as forum posts can be, they represent a fraction of the entire fanbase and it would be foolish for us to clobber one group of players solely based on the whining from another group.

Go ahead and vent if you have to. We won't delete posts or ban posters in this thread unless they are overly offensive. We do ask that you not launch a thousand other threads so that other paladin issues can still be discussed. Likewise, we have no problem with other classes engaging in the discussion but outright gloating or trolling will be frowned upon.

And I do apologize for putting you through this.


Se debe de haber pasado 3 pueblos con el nerf para tener tantos remordimientos de conciencia xD Aunque en algunas cosas tiene razón, como lo del manapool, no puedes pretender tener una barra de mana para que sólo haga bonito, si el pala tiene manapool es para gastarlo, al igual que el resto de clases.

D

Con el "but in this case we felt Ret was severely overpowered" lo ha dicho todo, sinceramente.

Sust0

http://img310.imageshack.us/img310/2584/paladins0gf.jpg

Espero que haya gente que sepa un mínimo de inglés.

Lova

#183 en serio q ves normal todo lo q mete un pala ahora, y no creeis q necesita un nerf?

y lo de la screen del 2005 gl eh

ManOwaR

Quote from: Ghostcrawler (Source)

I know many of you asked good questions before the posts hit their limit. I am not convinced that my answering many of these questions would calm anyone down, but I'll give it a shot. If not, when the paladin community has gotten it all out of their system, I'll still be here.

Also realize that there are probably a couple hundred questions at this point and I can't answer them all. Here are a few common themes:

I thought we were supposed to be bursty?

Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond.

You reviewed our class last because you don't care.

We overhauled the entire class. We rebuilt the way Seals and Judgements work, and by and large it's a good change. Paladins got a lot of attention for Lich King. your response suggests to me that the correct way to balance the game in the future is to make a class terrible early on and then buff it so that players are happy and excited instead of fuming and disappointed. Trajectory is everything.

I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.

We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.

We think we have your mana in a good place now, but mana is one of those aspects of the game that requires a lot of adjustment and there are many classes right now who would still like us to further review how mana is working for their class. If you're running out of mana too fast, believe me, we'll hear about it and we'll adjust it if we weren't "surgical" enough this time around.

But we don't care about Battlegrounds.

A lot of people do care. And if you don't care about them right now, I'll warrant that's because they don't offer the rewards that Arenas or raiding do. This is something we want to address in the future.

Again, though, we think Ret was out of line in several situations. Other classes are OP in some situations too, and we have either recently nerfed them or are still discussing how we want to address those classes as well.

Look at all the other classes in here laughing at us.

Well, they're jerks. Many of them probably suspect they are OP too and have so far escaped the nerfbat. So far. We want Retribution to be a dangerous class to go up against. We don't want to see BGs with 30 Retadins on one side, which is actually something we were seeing. Yeah, I know it sucks that people say Lolet. It sucks when people say huntards too. That doesn't drive people away from playing either class. We're always going to have some amount of competition in this game, either directly in PvP or the damage race in PvE. If I can read 1200 angry posts from Ret pallies today, you can blow off some inane gloating from warlocks or warriors. We delete the trolling comments when we see them.

Why didn't we compensate Holy and Protection first?

We want Holy to have better dps than it did in BC, but that's a secondary consideration compared to them being good at healing (which we believe they are). We are also still committed to Protection being able to tank anything that a warrior can. Consider that the boss armor changes hurts warrior threat more than it does paladin threat. The net result should hopefully come out equal. So far I'm not aware of a boss fight in the game where a paladin MT struggles. As I said, though, this is something we're working on right now.

Why did I describe our initial attempts to nerf Ret as surgical?

Because that's what we tried to do. In retrospect, we were so worried about nerfing Ret too much that we ended up not fixing the problem. We should have done more sweeping changes initially.

Why did we say Ret was fine for so long?

Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun. We thought and hoped that some well publicized bugs were to blame for the excess damage. As I've said, if I wait to post until we're absolutely 100% certain, you're just not going to get as many posts. Many posters have said they appreciate getting occasional developer communication and insight. But that is going to come with some risk that things are going to change. As I said, I'll caveat it more in the future.

That you're somehow paying to beta test the game.

First, I don't really think we'll ever get game balance to a state where 90% of you would say "Yes, it's perfect! Don't touch a thing!" Second, it's an MMO. Things change. The game evolves. We are always going to be changing things on our end as well. Players would be just as happy as not enough changes as some of you are with too many changes.

You may also have noticed that we nerfed level 70 raiding and that the level 80 raids are pretty easy compared to our past instances. We wanted to make sure we weren't shining too harsh a light on balance differences until everyone had plenty of time to get used to the changes -- more time than even our large beta can offer. Nobody should get parked at the curb in Naxx, and by the time Ulduar and later instances come on line, I predict we will have made many balance changes.

We don't believe you because we've been at the bottom of the barrel before.

There's not much I can do to get you to believe me or not. I try to be honest so my words carry some weight, but I also try to joke around a little so you know I don't take myself too seriously. I don't know how many other ways to say that it sucks that your PvE wasn't competitive in BC or that you weren't a major Arena force. That's not where we wanted you to end up and not where we want you to end up this time. I'm not going to show you my daily tasks or how I spend my time so that you can oversee my progress and make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry. The best thing you can do is point out situations where you're struggling so we can investigate. Most of you haven't even had a chance to test with these changes yet.

You're nerfing paladins because of PvP.

Read my initial post again. Ret PvE dps was also too high.

Our numbers are different from yours.

That's going to happen. We compare data when we can. I think you'd agree that the game balance would be pretty interesting if we automatically made adjustments whenever anyone suggested them.

You said I wouldn't get banned.

You're still going to get banned for explicit language, death threats or the like (thank you very much for those BTW). Try and make your point without resorting to text that will violate the posting regulations. Call me a jerk, if it will make you feel better. It boggles my mind that I actually need to point out that AIDS comments and the like aren't appropriate. If you're smart enough to raid or do Arenas on your character, you're smart enough to know how to make an intelligent post.

Added one more for clarification:

You only tested in Naxx, but paladins do bonus damage against undead.

Yes, we know that. We tested under a lot of different situations with and without undead and with different levels of gear and buffs present. I use Patchwerk as an example a lot because players understand that it is a very simple boss fight in which there is no running around, adds or damage to the raid.


A destacar:

Retadins: But we don't care about Battlegrounds.
Blizzard dev: We don't want to see BGs with 30 Retadins on one side, which is actually something we were seeing

Menuda contradicción oiga xD

Fr4n-pOtR3

que el pala necesitaba 1 nerf era mas que ovbio, yo tengo 1 pala y no me parecia normal ponerme 1 heal detras y arrasar con todo.

Pero de ai a un nerf que nos deja peor que antes del parche no se yo. xd

PalesTina

"2) Judgement of Wisdom: mana gained reduced to 1% of maximum mana and proc frequency cut by 50%. This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch when the mana provided between the two really needs to be close in order for the decision between Shadow priest and Retribution paladin to be a real one."

y sera lo de siempre "que me ofrece el pala retri que no me ofrezca cualquier otra clase?", lo dicho, matando al pala retri en pve y jodiendo al pala holy y prot porque en estos dias en las raids los judgements son una GRAN ayuda en las raids

"We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation)."

es por cosas como estas que digo que blizzard no sabe lo que hace cuando nerfea al pala, es una clase hibrida, no puede nerfear tanto sin afectar a las otras speccs, es decir que el shockadin desaparece y el palatank no lo va a querer ni el tato (20% menos de daño = 20% menos de aggro)

"You only tested in Naxx, but paladins do bonus damage against undead.

Yes, we know that. We tested under a lot of different situations with and without undead and with different levels of gear and buffs present. I use Patchwerk as an example a lot because players understand that it is a very simple boss fight in which there is no running around, adds or damage to the raid."

un gran ejemplo de en que se basa blizzard para balancear clases y en como justificarlo ofreciendo una respuesta diferente a la pregunta

eZpit

Han echo muy muy pero que muy mal las cosas.

Si no me equivoco, mas de un mes de PTR sabiendose perfectamente como iban a salir los palas retrys y en lugar de nerfearlos un poquito y dejarlos medio bien, pesaron en "bah queda 1 mes para wotkl y necesitamos sacar algo, sacamos el parche esto y a lvl 80 ya ajustaremos las clases". La pifiaron pero bien y ahora han HUNDIDO completamente al pala retry.

Porque si creeis que con todos esos nerfs el pala retry no va a pasar a la historia, no creeis bien.

Yo aun quiero jugar un pala retry balanceado, ni over ni que sea una puta basura como lleva siendo toda la tbc.

Hasta la fecha, una de las pifias mas grandes que yo haya visto.

joplacam

#188 Es lo que pasa cuando nos han intentado valancear, se les han ido la mano y ahora pues nos kedaremos peor que antes, k solo nos kedran como holys, xk con la nerfeado k se ha llevado de paso el palatank.... y ya no hablemos de la de retry.
PD: Gracias a la ayuda bliz, x dejarnos soñar unas semanas viendo viable el pala retry, fue corto, pero bien aprobechado XD

E3-NeOz

acabo de estar discutiendo con un pally de su nerf , y me ha saltado con la tipica lloriquera que si llevan 2 años siendo una peste y que pa una vez k tienen algo , ke xq se lo tienen k kitar .

Lo mas gracioso , es que le he explicado lo del burst y demas y tb le he comentado que es una clase Hibrida , que no puede ser que haga el mismo o mas dps que una clase pura en igualdad de equipo; a lo que me responde :

El :Es que tu , siendo un lock tb eres una clase hibrida.

yo : ??????????

El : Tanqueais en arenas , haceis DPS en raid y os curais .

yo : Pues subeme la armor a 20 k , y ponme un hechizo que me cure 5000 de vida , te parece bien ?

El : ..............................................................

ertatu

EN ESPAÑOL? PORFAVOR

cm07

#190 El Lock tiene muchísimo más CC que el pala. El royo de clase pura/ clase híbrida creía que ya estaba superadisimo, pero parece que no. Que cosas.

A mi me parece normal el Nerf. La única queja que tengo es que en todos los parches importantes le den mil cosas al pala para luego quitárselas.
Es como lo del Crusader Strike, que le subieron el cooldown y a nivel 70 cuando se vio que el DPS de un pala era de risa se lo volvieron a bajar.

B

#190, las leyendas dicen q el druida tb es una clase hibrida, pero amos, leyendas...

S

#193 la leyenda es tan cierta como que existen tanks O_O

eZpit

Clase hibrida ? Que cojones es una clase hibrida ?
Una clase con un cagarro de dps, que le burnean el mana en 20 segundos y que cada cura base de 2k le cuesta 800 de los 6000 de mana que tiene ?

SI O QUE ?

VoODaH

mi primo tiene pala retri y va cn druida resto... 2105 rating en 1 dia

P.D.: Confi - C'Thun - Alianza

:D

ChaRliFuM

Vamos a ver, lo de la clase hibrida es un rollo que alguno se ha sacado de la manga para justificar los nerfs y no es ni mucho menos la verdadera razon del nerf.

Blizzard desde antes de sacar la nueva expansion tenia muy claro lo que queria hacer y es basicamente eliminar el topico de "clase hibrida".

Se han escrito mil blue post por devs de Blizzard diciendo que su intencion es que una clase hibrida con spec dps, sea un dps mas y que este a la altura de cualquier dps puro, para ello lo que ha hecho ha sido apilar los talentos mas utiles lo mas cercanos a 51 puntos.

Este es el mismo ejemplo que con los tanks, blizzard ha dicho que su intencion no es que haya un tanke por excelencia como hasta ahora ha sido el warrior sino que todas las clases con ramas de talentos orientadas a tankear, sean igual de validos como tanque que las demas clases, es decir, ya no se buscara un warrior protection/pala protection/druida feral, sino que se buscara un <B>TANQUE[/b] sin mas.

Lo que ha pasado con el paladin es que directamente lo han dejado imbalanced, le han dado un DPS tremendo, un burst tremendo y un mana pool interminable y eso directamente no puede ser por varios motivos fundamentales:

-Pocas clases tenian un burst dmg tan alto con el paladin

-Pocas clases tenian un dps tan alto y constante como el paladin

-Pocas clases (mejor dicho ninguna) tenian un mana pool que les permitiese pegar con TODO y a la vez poder curarse

-Evidentemente ninguna de las otras clases tenia todo lo que he dicho ahi arriba excepto el paladin

Y como se trata de balancear el juego lo mejor posible, evidentemente una sola clase no puede tener TODO eso.

Ni clases hibridas ni hostias, ahora a ver que tal queda el paladin despues de este nerf

joplacam

#197 No te digo k no tuvieran k nerfear al palaretry, pero ya estan tocando a las otras ramas, y eso de reducir un 20% de agreao al palatank pues como k es otra cosa k nos vuelven a poner a los palas como el señor agreador en raid y luego entre un warrior/druid para tankear y el palatank gl.
yo tengo un pala y tengo ekipo de tanke y holy y para agrear de tanke tengo k gastar todo el mana rapidisimo, a no ser k tengo ekipo tier 6, lo cual no tengo.

R

siempre q se deja caer la palabra NERF ya se cree saber que lo van a dejar en bolas.

me parece muy normal que nerfeen la rama retri (es mas q evidentisimo)

pero tambien me parece normal que nerfeen el daño de la rama prot ( ojo, tengo un palatank, no es un cry), no puede ser que un tanque haga el mismo daño o mas que un DPS medio, sin ir mas lejos el otro dia en un full Karazhan quede top1-2 en DPS, habiendo gente con algun q otro moraos, y direis, SQ NO TIENEN MANOS, peroaun jugando pesimamente me parece incoherente que un tanque quede por delante de cualquier DPS asi q veo totalmente logico y correcto q nerfeen el daño, no kreo q repercuta en el agro, pq sq yo agreo hasta en retri (y holy pq no he kerido probarlo)

Fr4n-pOtR3

Voy a dar mi vision de esta nerf tan basto pero si necesario.

PVe: no es normal que metan a 1 retri en Kj solo por ser esa clase llevando tier 4, ojo que yo iba con mi equipito pamba y el con su t4 se llevava a varias clases full t6. Yo andaba por arriba pero no 1º warros,rogues,hunter meten mu duro. Un nerf en lo que a pve se refiere es normal, ojo tengo 1 pala retri desde hace mucho, y yo pido 1 nerf, solo para dejar de ver la tipica plaga de loladines que ahora se a creado.

Pvp: 1 nerf en pvp tambien era mas que normal, esta claro que es mu bruto que 1 retri si baje practicamente a cualquier heal siempre que no tenga trinket ese heal y sin mortal amigos, pero pensemos tambien que el pollo y el mago lo hacen, y espero un retoque para ellos tambien. 1 nerf en pvp justisimo tambien.

Lo que no es justo es que en el blizzcon le vendan la moto a toda la comunidad de palas diciendo que estan mu contentos con el retri jce, eso da que pensar, y es que bliz se fija demasiado en los lloros de las otras clases, OJO que me parece correcto. Pero el caso es que an tenido 2 meses o mas para ver lo que metia el pala, tanto pve y pvp. Y yo pregunto si se sabia desde los ptrs que el pala estaba demasiado duro porque lo sacaron asi¿?, el tema es claro solo se fijaron en la beta es decir lvl 80, ai el pala no sobresale sobre las demas clases, ai no ves la tipica confic de doble pala, doble mague o cosas raras. Ai mucho burst pero los heal se rien en tu cara, amigos el daño no escala tanto como lo hace la vida de las clases, que con equipo xustero azul de pvp se pasa de los 20 k facil.

Esto no es un cry es un punto de vista sobre lo mal que lo a echo bliz respecto al pala, veo 1 nerf al pala de lo mas normal, pero tanto como para dejarme como una clase que le dura el mana 1 min es un poco triste, y ojo que aun no e testeado el daño.

Espero que nos den un daño medio, no pido ser top, y espero tambien que miren el mana, que dure algo mas, como antes del parche esta mas que bien, me tendria que tirar mis potis de mana y de lujo.

#199 Kz? uD+aoe. Es normal.

goliat17

q nerfen pero q no se pasen xq el mago arcane toca mucho los cojones q usas en barraje ese como el icelance y nada mas correr y espamear es un sin sentido lo q mete y los BOOMkign a moonfire ni te cuento , q nerfen al pala x mi bien y eso q tengo uno pero q no se canteen demasiado con el regen xq ara si es muy toxo q subas de 60a70 sin restear ni 1 vez o hacer instances y no pedir ni aguas pero y a lvl 80?, q solo se podra tirar 1 pota en combate asi q aer q pasa.

GOGO 16dias------------------------>wotlk

A

yo tb tengo un pala y se q es excesivo como con un equipo de verdes y azules antes no mataba a nadie y ahora me puedo bajar a cualquier clase tranquilamente
q le metes el stun y le sueltas todo y antes de q se le vaya esta al 50%

y lo q le dura el mana 1 min no me lo creo

Fr4n-pOtR3

#202 ya ai videos de la beta que lo demuestran xd

ManOwaR

#203 si se pone a curar le durará poco, pero si se pone a hacer DPS, le dura bastante, tanto o más que cualquier clase dependiente de mana.

Por cierto, si hablamos de videos... xD

http://www.warcraftmovies.com/stream.php?id=92917&stream=Filefront&h=68f84cc07e5a65c0f0ec7b489488a0a9

Fr4n-pOtR3

#204 se de lo que hablo el pavo no cura, esta en los monigotes de ventor haciendo dps. Lo busco y lo linkeo.

x cierto, te odio por el video valla puta mierda de musica.

wiSe_

Es mentira que existen los HoW de 4ks de critico. (unarmed)

sharker

Volviendo al wow despues de hace 2 años (donde el paladin era la risa en dps, cualquiera que jugase entonces se acordara de esos paladines en hillsbrad con consecration) y subiendo nivel con 1.... Con un puto consecration se coge el agro de los bixos q le salga de las pelotas, ya me puedo poner a hacer blizzard, a invocar al mismisimo jesucristo y moises para que le quiete el agro que no se lo quita ni dios xDDD.

Y mete mas que mi mago que solo le puede igualar con criticos y ni eso xDDD.

Asi que era normal...

M

Aclarar el nerfeo al mago ARCANE. Pq por una vez podemos competir en pve con el dps de lo demas. Estoy hablando del Mage Fire, que por una puta vez esta donde toca, muy arriba en el DPS.

Los locks llorais demasiado y ahora que no podeis hundir el 1 de la Shadowbolt y ver 8k+8k+8k.... La cosa no os mola.

Sobre el paladin retry, que salga Solid y os explique como esta la cosa con su paladin xDDDDD IMBA!

cm07

#207 Igual eso tiene más que ver con el bufo de 90% de agro extra en daño sagrado.

wiSe_

#208 Hablas sin saber acerca del Lock, sry kkthxbb.

pd: Y los magos hundir el 1 de fireballs, si esque comentarios así los hace cualquiera, wannabes.

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